Have you seen this Church?

Has anyone seen a Church answering this description?

1. “last feudal institution in the Western world”
2. “a mediaeval bastion of secrecy and privilege”
3. “cannot survive in the modern world”
4. where “the people’s role is to ”pray, pay and obey””
5. No “short-term future”
6. which is “losing all its educated women because they felt so oppressed”

Sounds awful. I don’t know what church this is describing, but it’s not the one I belong to!

(Background to this story: http://www.johngarratt.com.au/cozzens.php)

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15 Responses to Have you seen this Church?

  1. wayne says:

    I know what church it is

  2. Salvatore says:


    But I’d join it if I could find it!


  3. Christine says:

    This is pretty much the standard line Father Cozzens has held to for quite some time. He is well known at John Carroll U, our local Jesuit university.

    Yes, I’m sure John Shelby Spong was elected by the people. Ouch.


  4. Peter Golding says:

    When I received an email from John Garratts inviting me to this “event”,I took about half a nano-second to decide that I would not part with my hard earned for a ticket to listen to these clowns.
    I regard the lot as modernist drivel but will address points 5 and 6.
    Many on this blog including me like to put the boot into the NCR and with good reason.It is a fraudulent rag.It does however,have one quality journalist,John Allen.His columns are balanced and objective and he has a genuine allegiance to the facts.
    John Allen has recently released a book titled “The Future Church”.He points out that in 1900 of 266 million catholics,200 million lived in Europe and North America.Today 350 million live in Europe and North America and 750 million live outside those areas.By 2025 only 1 in 5 catholics will be a non-hispanic caucasian.
    The growth areas of the church such as Africa and South America are morally conservative,intolerant of weakening of the family,and of abortion and homosexuality.The are not worried about sexist language or church structures.In short,they are not “We Are Church”hippies,which according to John Allen,will continue to go out of the church backwards.The problem with progressives like Cozzens is they almost invariably have a provincial mentality and cannot see what is happening outside their own backyard.Whilst the Universal Church may be struggling in countries like ours,overall it has a very bright future.
    Now to women in the church.On March 3 this year,the Melbourne Archdiocese website carried an article marking International Women’s Day and acknowledging the outstanding contribution women have and continue to make to the life of the church here.The article also pointed out that 66 per cent of regular mass attendees here are women.
    Back to the U.S.John Allen points out there are 31,000 lay ecclesial ministers there with a further 20,000 plus in training.80 per cent of these are women.
    If the church heirarchy really hate women then they are doing a very poor job of getting their message accross.

  5. Paul G says:

    The clerical abuse scandals are used by many people to push different agendas. In no way do I want to play down these scandals, in my opinion, evangelisation is almost useless until the scandals and their handling is corrected.

    However, I think it is drawing a very long bow to blame a Church hierarchy on lack of transparency, it is the behaviour of the people involved that is the fault. There have been several scandals among the free-wheeling, independent evangelical churches in the US.

    On the other side of the fence, I have heard people blame lack of discipline after Vatican II for the abuse crimes, and perhaps lack of discipline has something to do with the cover-ups as well.

    Actually, I don’t think the shame and scandal of these crimes can be blamed on church structures or lack of them. (except, perhaps, if you eliminate the idea and existance of priests, you can’t have clerical abuse cases anymore, I suppose.)

  6. wayne says:

    The bible describes earthly powers, (governments) as beasts. 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

    17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

    Have you seen me? Im dressed in purple and scarlet and have a gold cup in my hand full of the blood of bible believers ive burned at the stake

    • Schütz says:

      I was wondering what the new purple and scarlet (and green and white for that matter) vestments my parish has purchased was all about… And a new gold communion cup too! A prophecy!

      A little joke here that I have probably told before:

      When meeting for the first time in the local Catholic conversation with Evangelicals and Pentacostals, we did not serve wine at the meal (respecting our guests). However, at the end of a very jovial lunch, I asked whether they would like me to have a bottle or two on the table next time.

      One of the women, a Pentacostal pastor, answered: “Well, if you’re going to eat with the Whore of Babylon, you might as well have a drink!”

      Pass the port to Wayne, someone.

  7. wayne says:

    Well, im not making idol talk, and no, im not picking on the catholic church only. I pick on all religions. What im doing is pointing out that maybe you need more than religion. Maybe religion doesnt save. A relation is better than religion. But this particular religion bars the way to Christ. Protestant religions leave the door open but in themselves there is no salvation. I guess it dont matter what you are befor you get saved. What matters IS getting SAVED.Asking Christ to reveal himself.Religions, mainly the one alluded to, dont stress being born again. At least the protestant religions tolerate that idea. The CC hates it. I get more flack from catholic friends for claiming to be born again. Protestants just say ” thats nice”

  8. Matthias says:

    Yes Wayne i agree,one needs to confess their sins and accept that what Christ did on Calvary -once and for all- and to trust in Him . As Luther said once about a dream in which Satan came with a list of luther’s sins and luther said yes that’s correct but write in red ‘THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST CLEANSES ME FROM ALL SINS” however,when a Catholic or an Anglo catholic says the Creeds at Mass- or a Lutheran or Presbyterian at Holy Communion also repeat the Creeds,the Gospel is there. to quote Colin Nunis from his web site “I have been a Catholic all my life, but only came to make sense of that gift 11 years ago when I asked Jesus Christ to be the Lord & Saviour of my life.”

  9. Matthias says:

    i should have added that Colin Nunis is now a member of the Melkite Greek Catholics ,BAC to boot I’d say ,all without turning Proddy.
    I was brought up in Evangelicalism,i heard and saw a lot of lack of practising the purity of the Church-to quote Francis Schaeffer- but agree with what Corrie Ten Boom said that in the shadow of the gas chambers at Ravensbruck,there was no issue around what church one attended.What mattered was faith in the Risen Lord.

  10. Louise says:

    I’m just dropping in to tell you that our son, Felix Martin was born on Friday 23 July, weighing in at 8lb 2oz.

    Many thanks for the prayers. I’m recovering well and the baby is healthy and a beautiful little chap, adored by us all.

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